Obscanity: You'll know it when you see it

That’s baloney and you know it. Israel only strikes in retaliation; Hamas instigates fights because it wants Israel gone. The only reason Israel even HAS control over Gaza and the West Bank is that Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in 1967. Israel never would have been in this position if it wasn’t attacked to begin with.

Right, Israel cares about civilians. This is exactly why the death tolls during these skirmishes is skewed so heavily towards Palestinian civilians.

Israel can pretend to be the little victim here but since they have the use of force on their side the burden of responsibility is on them.

The “hardcore Zionists/Orthodox Jews” are the ones living in the settlements, not the ones dropping the bombs. It’s true that they benefit from continued fighting and not peace accords, since they will most likely lose their homes as a result of any peace accords. And I’m not saying they shouldn’t – but they likely will. So yes, many of the settlers are quite hawkish and right-wing.

But they are not the ones in power. In fact if I remember correctly the “hardcore Orthodox” are exempted from military service entirely.

Most of Israel is NOT hardcore Orthodox or even very very religious. People don’t seem to realize what Zionism is, because the word has been tainted by anti-Israel propaganda. Most of Israel doesn’t believe in an “ethnically pure” Israel. The point is that it is a Jewish state, not that it evicts every non-Jew or forces every Jew to live there. I will never understand how people don’t believe the Jews should be able to have one country in the entire world that is run by Jewish law. The Christians have tons of countries, and so do the Muslims, and the Hindus, etc. God forbid the Jews should have one tiny country which belonged to us in the first place, and which we developed and built out of NOTHING? Why do you think the Palestinians migrated there in the first place? You think that land was heavily populated before Jews started fleeing there from Europe? Please. Much of the land in Israel was purchased by Jewish immigrants in the 19th and 20th centuries, and they built it up, worked it, and increased the standard of living drastically.

Most Israeli citizens want a two-state solution, but that doesn’t mean it evicts all of its Arab citizens into the new state. Israel has plenty of Arab citizens whose families chose not to leave in 1948 when they were told to clear the way so the Arab countries could mow Israel down. On the other hand, most Palestinians want Israel gone, and at least in Gaza, seem to prefer war to accepting the idea of a permanent Israel. Where do you go from there?

Proof? (Aside from the election of Hamas to leadership?) The hawkish Orthodox settlers wouldn’t live there now if Arafat had accepted what was offered to him by Rabin in the 90’s – more than 90% of what he was asking for, including all of Gaza and most of the West Bank, as I recall. Arafat decided that even if they could get ALL of the territories back, they didn’t want it without the “right of return,” aka the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish state. When Israel offers to compromise, Palestinian leaders don’t respond in good faith; instead they conclude that Israel’s willingness to compromise is a sign of weakness, and take it as a sign that they’re just that much closer to wiping out Israel altogether. And when they do get control of some land, e.g. Gaza, they use it to launch rockets into Israel. Israel gave up control of Gaza. They had the chance to take matters into their own hands and improve the lives of the Palestinian people there. Instead they put all of their efforts into launching rockets into Israel. They will never settle for any compromise that doesn’t involve the full dissolution of the state of Israel.

In any event, you say that the priorities and incentives of the people on the street are different from those of the people in power? Hamas is in power. The Palestinian people VOTED Hamas into power. I was a hell of a lot more like you in my thinking before that happened. I was always under the impression that it was the right wing folks in charge on both sides who were screwing everything up for all the innocent people who just wanted peace. That ended when Hamas won the election. I find it hard to believe that a people who really want peace and mutual compromise would vote into power an organization whose primary mission is to destroy the state of Israel.

As for the number of deaths? The Gaza population density is pretty high, as is the population overall. If Israel wasn’t taking measures to minimize the death toll, you’d see much, much higher numbers. After all, how many Iraqis died as a result of the US war on Iraq? A hell of a lot more than that in any equal period of time. And let me ask you – does that number of deaths include the Gaza residents who have died under Hamas fire, too? I know they’ve killed at least a few of their own people this past week with misfired rockets, and god only knows how many haven’t been reported. Hamas and other extremists like to blame every death in the region on Israel. They even tried to claim Arafat was somehow secretly killed by Israel.

Tasha, Israel isn’t the only side with the ability to impose force. Israel has itself and the US on its side. Hamas has Syria, Egypt, Iran, and every other Muslim or Arab country in the world.

I’d hardly say Israel comes out ahead in that respect. Who do you think is arming Hamas in the first place? You think those rockets are little 2-liter Coca-Cola bottles or something? The image of the little boy hurling stones at the Israeli tanks is one of the most ridiculous and false propaganda pieces in the world. In fact if you pan back on that picture, you see a long row of journalists and photographers preparing for the photo op.

The number of deaths doesn’t always signify the side that is in the right. The Confederacy suffered more deaths than the Union army – yet are we going to lay our sympathies with those who went to war for their ‘right’ to keep slaves, just because more of them died fighting for it?

In any event, people need to brush up on their history of these regions. Israel didn’t want Gaza or the West Bank initially; they only wound up controlling the regions because they were attacked by Egypt and Syria and pushed outward to defend themselves.

Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon – all of these countries could easily have absorbed the Arab populations that left Israel in 1948 (many of whom had come there for the jobs created by the Jews, and left after being instructed to by the Arab nations who were planning to attack Israel and didn’t want to kill their brethren in the process). Israel absorbed an equal number of Middle Eastern Jews who were expelled from Arab nations in 1948 – those listed, plus Yemen, Saudi Arabia, etc. Note that while many Arab people chose to stay in Israel and did not wind up in refugee camps (as in, they had a choice, and they made it, and they are still there now with full citizenship), the Arab countries *EXPELLED* the Jews living in their countries, usually forcing them out while making them leave their belongings and wealth behind.

But did the surrounding nations absorb those who left in the same way that Israel absorbed those who were expelled? No. Instead the people who left Palestine in 1948 were kept in refugee camps *by the Arab nations*, on land owned by the Arab nations – Gaza (which belonged to Egypt), and the West Bank (Jordan – i.e. the west bank of the JORDAN River). They were, for the most part, not permitted to enter other countries, because the end goal was always to destroy Israel and have them return when all the Jews were “pushed into the sea.” Refugee camps make a much more sympathetic picture for the rest of the world. In the case where they *were* permitted to enter (Jordan), they were expelled again when the PLO tried to take over the country.

In 1967, Egypt and Syria attacked Israel, which at that time did NOT include Gaza OR the West Bank. Israel fought back, and wound up with extra territory as buffer zones. Unfortunately that territory happened to house the Palestinian refugee camps. In 1973 the Arab nations attacked Israel AGAIN – on the most holy of Jewish holy days, hoping to catch them off guard – and Israel fought back AGAIN and wound up in control of Syria’s Golan Heights, which had previously been used to launch missiles and rockets into Israel.

Israel never wanted control or authority over the people who left in 1948, and it doesn’t want it now. What it wants is to stop being attacked, and the more land it gives up now, the closer the borders get to the main population centers. Israel relinquished control of Gaza years ago – and look what happened: instead of developing the region, they simply used it as land from which to launch rockets from a closer starting point – rockets obtained by much, much larger countries. And you wonder why Israel blocked the borders and is now sending ground troops back in? Can you imagine if Mexico was launching missiles into California and Texas? Do you think the United States would tolerate even ONE missile being launched into its borders without retaliating? Why should Israel have to put up with hundreds?